OK. I have a concern. I just did a very tight star on my wifes vehicle. I did try and start the repair and inject w/o drilling. First let me back up and say I noticed some moisture inside and picked up the M.E. 12 secs in I seen a leg run. Lucky enough it didn't run far...Whew!
I did the normal routine. I ran the heat on mild at the floor until it felt warm enough and then moved it to defroster & Floor. I checked my Glass entirely and each reading was 80 - 90 f. Not sure why I am still having such a problem with these things running on me. It almost makes me not want to use the M.E.
Thats a feeling of failure in a way. I've been at this now for quite awhile now and am still hitting this bump!
I got to figure out why this is still periodically happening. Im making sure temps of the glass are at standards, resin matches temp of glass, I keep a hair dryer on the glass throughout the entire process. Just not sure what else I may need to do or may be missing here!
ARRGH!
-
screenman
- Senior Member
- Posts: 3192
- Joined: February 25th, 2004, 1:44 pm
- Enter the middle number please (3): 5
- Location: uk Lincolnshire
- Contact:
Re: ARRGH!
I have found in testing that a surface leg is far likely to run than a subsurface leg, I have not got a clue why. I have run this test many times and it always turns out the same, so check, inspect and check again any damage before you start doing any at all, only takes a few seconds and you will learn a lot.
To test for a surface leg just run your scribe over the leg, with practise you will soon feel the click as it catches.
The nice thing about the M.E or Drystar as some will call it is that it only heats a small area, then if a leg does run it will stop or certainly slow once it hits the cooler glass. Hot glass is more fragile than cool glass, I cannot remember the temperature's but I am sure a search will tell you.
Now warming the inside, think of it like this. You have a piece of plastic and you bend it, where will the cracks appear first, yes on the outside of the bend. When you warm up the glass from the inside the outer is often still cool, so one has expanded and one has not causing a slight stretching, now because the glass cannot do this it puts pressure on the crack to run. Well at least that is my theory on it. This also explains when warming glass for the inside to fill a break you will see for a split second the break expanding before shutting up, this is the difference in temperature and expansion, when the heat does eventually travel through the PVB then the damage will shut up due to the outer glass expanding, this is when many think the damage has filled.
To test for a surface leg just run your scribe over the leg, with practise you will soon feel the click as it catches.
The nice thing about the M.E or Drystar as some will call it is that it only heats a small area, then if a leg does run it will stop or certainly slow once it hits the cooler glass. Hot glass is more fragile than cool glass, I cannot remember the temperature's but I am sure a search will tell you.
Now warming the inside, think of it like this. You have a piece of plastic and you bend it, where will the cracks appear first, yes on the outside of the bend. When you warm up the glass from the inside the outer is often still cool, so one has expanded and one has not causing a slight stretching, now because the glass cannot do this it puts pressure on the crack to run. Well at least that is my theory on it. This also explains when warming glass for the inside to fill a break you will see for a split second the break expanding before shutting up, this is the difference in temperature and expansion, when the heat does eventually travel through the PVB then the damage will shut up due to the outer glass expanding, this is when many think the damage has filled.
-
chipfix
- Junior Member
- Posts: 60
- Joined: April 26th, 2009, 2:19 am
- Contact:
Re: ARRGH!
Here is my theory on heating to dry out and so far I haven't had a crack spread.
You want to heat the whole area of the chip so I disagree with screenman that heating a small area is a good thing.If it is a big star and you only heat the center but you have a leg
that goes beyond where you are heating you are more likely to have that leg extend.
Think about when you heat a small star break and the crack closes up, this will put pressure on the part of the leg that is not hot to open up (I think).
Well I am still in the theory stage but so far so good and I will let you know if I prove myself wrong.
You want to heat the whole area of the chip so I disagree with screenman that heating a small area is a good thing.If it is a big star and you only heat the center but you have a leg
that goes beyond where you are heating you are more likely to have that leg extend.
Think about when you heat a small star break and the crack closes up, this will put pressure on the part of the leg that is not hot to open up (I think).
Well I am still in the theory stage but so far so good and I will let you know if I prove myself wrong.
-
screenman
- Senior Member
- Posts: 3192
- Joined: February 25th, 2004, 1:44 pm
- Enter the middle number please (3): 5
- Location: uk Lincolnshire
- Contact:
Re: ARRGH!
The Drystar has a small heating area for a reason, warm or hot glass breaks easier than cold so the leg will slow when hitting the colder area. Also the larger the volume of glass you heat the longer it takes to cool down. After 22 years of drying out 99% of repairs I think I have it as good as I can get it.
We used to heat a larger area back in the eighties we soon realised this was not required, heat the part where the moisture is.
We used to heat a larger area back in the eighties we soon realised this was not required, heat the part where the moisture is.
-
Glasseye
- Member
- Posts: 380
- Joined: March 7th, 2006, 12:41 pm
- Enter the middle number please (3): 5
- Location: England, Staffordshire
- Contact:
Re: ARRGH!
Glasstime - reading your post you said you heated the whole glass area up to 80 - 90 degrees F. and you then kept a hair dryer on the glass throughout the process. 2 things would be happening to the screen then
1) Stressing - the glass would be expanding and contracting to a high degree because of the high temperature and the action of the hair dryer
2) Interlayer softening - the PVB interlayer would soften, allowing the stress movements in the glass to be stronger, increasing the risk of cracks " running"
The ideal overall temperature for the windshield would be 55 - 77 Deg. F. once you have achieved this temperature, unless you are working in extreme cold conditions, it is not necessary to keep heating the glass as the latent heat will suffice to complete the repair. I personally only use the floor heater setting in the car to raise the glass temp. to working temperature to avoid uneven stressing of the glass, likewise when cooling from a high temperature.
You also mentioned the type of damage was a " tight star". before beginning the repair process I normally open up the star to allow better access for the resin. To do this I use an impact tool which is a similar action to spring loaded centre punch but with a much lighter punch. This allows me to apply the shock precisely in the correct place and direction through the impact point of the damage. Doing this also reduces stress in the break and then allows better and safer use of the M.E.
1) Stressing - the glass would be expanding and contracting to a high degree because of the high temperature and the action of the hair dryer
2) Interlayer softening - the PVB interlayer would soften, allowing the stress movements in the glass to be stronger, increasing the risk of cracks " running"
The ideal overall temperature for the windshield would be 55 - 77 Deg. F. once you have achieved this temperature, unless you are working in extreme cold conditions, it is not necessary to keep heating the glass as the latent heat will suffice to complete the repair. I personally only use the floor heater setting in the car to raise the glass temp. to working temperature to avoid uneven stressing of the glass, likewise when cooling from a high temperature.
You also mentioned the type of damage was a " tight star". before beginning the repair process I normally open up the star to allow better access for the resin. To do this I use an impact tool which is a similar action to spring loaded centre punch but with a much lighter punch. This allows me to apply the shock precisely in the correct place and direction through the impact point of the damage. Doing this also reduces stress in the break and then allows better and safer use of the M.E.
-
chipfix
- Junior Member
- Posts: 60
- Joined: April 26th, 2009, 2:19 am
- Contact:
Re: ARRGH!
The dry star has a small heating area for a reason,yeah,its element was made for lighting cigarettes.
The point is to not make the crack spread in the first place and I believe from experience that heating the entire area of the damage evenly reduces that chance.
With a good heat sink cooling down is not a problem.
The point is to not make the crack spread in the first place and I believe from experience that heating the entire area of the damage evenly reduces that chance.
With a good heat sink cooling down is not a problem.
-
screenman
- Senior Member
- Posts: 3192
- Joined: February 25th, 2004, 1:44 pm
- Enter the middle number please (3): 5
- Location: uk Lincolnshire
- Contact:
Re: ARRGH!
Regardless of what the Drystar element was designed for it woks by applying heat where it is needed and not else where, allowing of course for faster cool down. Do you disagree that hot or warm glass is more fragile than hot? In the end if it works for you then that is fine, however I am not in the theory stage and have to dry out every repair so believe me when I say I have tried other methods including yours.
-
Brent Deines
- Moderator
- Posts: 2449
- Joined: September 24th, 2003, 7:54 am
- Enter the middle number please (3): 5
- Location: Eugene, OR
- Contact:
Re: ARRGH!
I prefer heating from the outside, as like Graham said, it takes a long time for the heat to travel through the inner layer of glass and lam, but if the glass is very cool I'll also use the defrosters to help keep the glass warm throughout the repair process. I don't bother with floor heat but turn the defrosters directly on the glass full blast. The air starts out blowing cool and gradually warms up. It takes forever for the glass to get warm if you just use the floor heater.
Like chipfix, I believe that heating the entire windshield or as large an area as possible prior to using the moisture evaporator is the best way to ensure that you don't get crack outs. I do agree with Graham that you should not heat a large area to the degree that the moisture evaporator heats, but I would never apply it to a cold windshield.
Like GLASSTIME, I use a hair dryer to keep the outside of the glass warm during the entire repair process, and have never had a problem doing so, even when the temperatures reach 80-90 degrees as stated. In fact, I like having the glass at that temperature before I apply the moisture evaporator. I use the hair dryer to keep the glass surrounding the damage at a consistent temperature during the repair process. With a directional tip and multiple heat settings I find I can keep the glass in the temperature range I prefer without much trouble.
In my experience it is the shock of rapid heating or cooling that will cause a break to run and unfortunately it does require quite a bit of heat to remove the moisture quickly. Still, I don't experience the crack out problem that GLASSTIME has been struggling with so using the moisture evaporator is a no brainer for me. If I was having that problem I would be just as gun shy and frustrated as he is.
This discussion is always very interesting to me as there are so many different opinions on the best way to warm glass and how warm is too warm, as well as how best to dry out a break. screenman and I have discussed this on several occasions, and although we disagree on what is the "best" method for warming the glass, we are both getting the desired results...very few crack outs! It's pretty hard to argue with results, so as long as you are able to remove the moisture and don't have crack outs, more power to you.
What I think often happens on the forum is that technicians take a little of what several different people say but never follow any one technician's advice from start to finish, which makes it very difficult to diagnose a problem. With all the conflicting advice that has been given so far newbies have to be very confused. Not sure what the answer is to this problem since it seems few of us agree on the best way to avoid crack outs when drying out a break.
Like chipfix, I believe that heating the entire windshield or as large an area as possible prior to using the moisture evaporator is the best way to ensure that you don't get crack outs. I do agree with Graham that you should not heat a large area to the degree that the moisture evaporator heats, but I would never apply it to a cold windshield.
Like GLASSTIME, I use a hair dryer to keep the outside of the glass warm during the entire repair process, and have never had a problem doing so, even when the temperatures reach 80-90 degrees as stated. In fact, I like having the glass at that temperature before I apply the moisture evaporator. I use the hair dryer to keep the glass surrounding the damage at a consistent temperature during the repair process. With a directional tip and multiple heat settings I find I can keep the glass in the temperature range I prefer without much trouble.
In my experience it is the shock of rapid heating or cooling that will cause a break to run and unfortunately it does require quite a bit of heat to remove the moisture quickly. Still, I don't experience the crack out problem that GLASSTIME has been struggling with so using the moisture evaporator is a no brainer for me. If I was having that problem I would be just as gun shy and frustrated as he is.
This discussion is always very interesting to me as there are so many different opinions on the best way to warm glass and how warm is too warm, as well as how best to dry out a break. screenman and I have discussed this on several occasions, and although we disagree on what is the "best" method for warming the glass, we are both getting the desired results...very few crack outs! It's pretty hard to argue with results, so as long as you are able to remove the moisture and don't have crack outs, more power to you.
What I think often happens on the forum is that technicians take a little of what several different people say but never follow any one technician's advice from start to finish, which makes it very difficult to diagnose a problem. With all the conflicting advice that has been given so far newbies have to be very confused. Not sure what the answer is to this problem since it seems few of us agree on the best way to avoid crack outs when drying out a break.
Brent Deines
Delta Kits, Inc.
Delta Kits, Inc.
-
puka pau
- Member
- Posts: 157
- Joined: November 1st, 2010, 4:05 pm
- Enter the middle number please (3): 3
- Contact:
Re: ARRGH!
In my experience, several factors have to be considered in context:
1. Quality of the break. They can all be categorized (bullseye, star, etc) but they can all exhibit characteristics specific to the particular break in question that make each damage more or less stable than others of the same genre.
2. Quality of the glass. The glass can be categorized (OEM, aftermarket) but although all glass meets nominal spec at the factory, there can be and probably are small variations in each batch that can make a particular piece of glass more or less inherently stable.
3. Quality of the installation. All thing being equal, factory-installed glass should probably be more stable than a replacement installation but the operative word is still "probably". Nothing's perfect.
4. Type of glass. Is it flat or curved? How is it stressed after installation?
5. There may be other characteristics that escape me.
Any or all of the above anomalies can and will present themselves in combination or separately to varying degrees. What we should all recognize is that WSR not only is an imperfect science but that both methodologies and results can and will vary. I've used bic-type lighters, vehicle cigarette lighters, matches, vehicle defrosters and moisture evaporators. All these methods "work". Depending on the situation some work better sometimes than others. At times I've used more than one method on the same break - but even after many years I still occasionally have a repair go (or try to go) sideways. The more repairs you do the more intuitive the process (hopefully) becomes. The more techniques you are comfortable with (and when and to what degree each should be applied) will normally increase your success rate. Unfortunately, the unexpected usually happens when you least expect it. Ultimately, the successful practice of WSR, as many disciplines, is more art than science. And never forget - we're working on broken glass.
Puka Pau
1. Quality of the break. They can all be categorized (bullseye, star, etc) but they can all exhibit characteristics specific to the particular break in question that make each damage more or less stable than others of the same genre.
2. Quality of the glass. The glass can be categorized (OEM, aftermarket) but although all glass meets nominal spec at the factory, there can be and probably are small variations in each batch that can make a particular piece of glass more or less inherently stable.
3. Quality of the installation. All thing being equal, factory-installed glass should probably be more stable than a replacement installation but the operative word is still "probably". Nothing's perfect.
4. Type of glass. Is it flat or curved? How is it stressed after installation?
5. There may be other characteristics that escape me.
Any or all of the above anomalies can and will present themselves in combination or separately to varying degrees. What we should all recognize is that WSR not only is an imperfect science but that both methodologies and results can and will vary. I've used bic-type lighters, vehicle cigarette lighters, matches, vehicle defrosters and moisture evaporators. All these methods "work". Depending on the situation some work better sometimes than others. At times I've used more than one method on the same break - but even after many years I still occasionally have a repair go (or try to go) sideways. The more repairs you do the more intuitive the process (hopefully) becomes. The more techniques you are comfortable with (and when and to what degree each should be applied) will normally increase your success rate. Unfortunately, the unexpected usually happens when you least expect it. Ultimately, the successful practice of WSR, as many disciplines, is more art than science. And never forget - we're working on broken glass.
Puka Pau
-
GLASSTIME
- Member
- Posts: 408
- Joined: January 26th, 2009, 4:28 pm
- Enter the middle number please (3): 5
- Location: Gaston, North Carolina
- Contact:
Re: ARRGH!
I must clarify!
I haven't had a crack out since last year around the holiday season ( Probably this time last year) Yet that paticular break was also a tight star in which I had to open up and it was about 28 degrees out! Much, Much colder! I think I did learn a lesson from that da and my body did too! No WSR in extreme climate conditions....Needless to say I was sick for 4 days following!
Even then I did everything by the book. Still the star ran on me.
This break was simular as again it was tight, I had to open it up ( I got to use my NEW Spring Hammer) might I add! "It's totally rad" just so my resin would flow in. And yes I tried to perform the break prior to opening the break.. I only placed the heat on the floor as the vehicle had already been driven for over an hour. The heat was instantly hotttt! I turned the temp dial to about half way maybe 75ish and left it there for the heat to cool off some. I then placed the heat to full defroster and allowed the entire windshield to warm to the desired temp of 80 or better, which it did!
I used my dryer on the break itself as I always do and began the repair process. I used the ME for 12 seconds. At first I didn't realize there was a leg that had ran (Normally I hear it) this time I heard nothing. I accepted the fact that it ran, what I am unsure of is since my last "Crack Out" some 12 months or so ago is my "Crack Out" ration considered high? I've noticed there are many on here whom claim to never have a "Crack Out" and some I'm speaking for that have!
Using the ME is always a very nervous part of the process for me, very frightened. I have learned from the "Crack Out" I had prior to the one last year taught me a very valuable lesson and that was to SLOW DOWN! Doing repairs in the summer vs. the winter are not in the same in my book! Two totally different elements and variables to work with.
I was curious if maybe me leaning in the glass could have caused it, I know my injector wasn't to flushed to the glass as some resin slipped out. I always turn my dials down 2 full turns so I know this didn't do it. My only conclusion other than the possibility of the rapid heat cange and expansion of the glass?? or the weight of my arm?
It would be nice to not stress when it's ME time!!!!!
I haven't had a crack out since last year around the holiday season ( Probably this time last year) Yet that paticular break was also a tight star in which I had to open up and it was about 28 degrees out! Much, Much colder! I think I did learn a lesson from that da and my body did too! No WSR in extreme climate conditions....Needless to say I was sick for 4 days following!
Even then I did everything by the book. Still the star ran on me.
This break was simular as again it was tight, I had to open it up ( I got to use my NEW Spring Hammer) might I add! "It's totally rad" just so my resin would flow in. And yes I tried to perform the break prior to opening the break.. I only placed the heat on the floor as the vehicle had already been driven for over an hour. The heat was instantly hotttt! I turned the temp dial to about half way maybe 75ish and left it there for the heat to cool off some. I then placed the heat to full defroster and allowed the entire windshield to warm to the desired temp of 80 or better, which it did!
I used my dryer on the break itself as I always do and began the repair process. I used the ME for 12 seconds. At first I didn't realize there was a leg that had ran (Normally I hear it) this time I heard nothing. I accepted the fact that it ran, what I am unsure of is since my last "Crack Out" some 12 months or so ago is my "Crack Out" ration considered high? I've noticed there are many on here whom claim to never have a "Crack Out" and some I'm speaking for that have!
Using the ME is always a very nervous part of the process for me, very frightened. I have learned from the "Crack Out" I had prior to the one last year taught me a very valuable lesson and that was to SLOW DOWN! Doing repairs in the summer vs. the winter are not in the same in my book! Two totally different elements and variables to work with.
I was curious if maybe me leaning in the glass could have caused it, I know my injector wasn't to flushed to the glass as some resin slipped out. I always turn my dials down 2 full turns so I know this didn't do it. My only conclusion other than the possibility of the rapid heat cange and expansion of the glass?? or the weight of my arm?
It would be nice to not stress when it's ME time!!!!!
Chad E. Clewis
President
GLASSTIME Windshield Repair & Headlight Restoration
"Its What You Put Into It That Counts"
President
GLASSTIME Windshield Repair & Headlight Restoration
"Its What You Put Into It That Counts"
Who is online
Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 18 guests