computer based WR kits -worth the money?

[screenman]

Some of the common causes for legs not filling are.

Moisture.
Premature curing, more common than you would think this one.
Trapped air, this would flow back through resin when pressure released.
Unconnected leg, this would need connecting by flexing or popping.

I would say most starbreak legs are subsurface, I also would never use a vacuum on and damage that has extending legs to the surface, Unless no I will not go there it will take to long.

This lot mad esence when I wrote it, not so sure now its been a hard day.

[Brent Deines]

There are a number of reasons that might keep a leg from filling, but just because they are sub-surface is not one of them. Before I go any further I need to state that when talking procedure, I can only speak for Delta Kits windshield repair products, as we tend to buck many of the trends other manufacturers have adopted over the years. If using another system I always recommend contacting the manufacturer of that system if having difficulty filling breaks.

So with that in mind, the legs of a sub-surface star break should fill just fine with the right amount of pressure and the right resin, but air will be compressed and trapped at the end, or in rare instances against the edges of the crack. When the vacuum cycle is applied the air is pulled from it's resting place at the end of the crack and up though the injector. This is why Delta Kits is so adamant about using hydraulic pressure vs air pressure to inject the resin into the break. If air is used you are trying to push resin with air on one end, and against air on the other end. If too much pressure is used the air will push into or through the resin, but that cannot happen with a true hydraulic system.

Many systems claim to use hydraulics, but if you analyze the delivery system it is clear that the air is not completely removed from the system. With the Delta Kits system there really is not a lot of vacuum used. We use just enough vacuum to get the air to start flowing, and then let gravity take over, very much like the way a siphon hose works, except with air rather than fluid. I'm sorry, this is beginning to sound like a sales pitch, and that is not my intention, but this is a very important fact to consider and we have done a great deal of research on this matter. However I will refrain from going into more detail about what makes a system perform or fail to perform for now.

Some of the things that can keep a leg from filling are a blockage (glass particle) at the beginning of the leg that will not allow the resin to pass, too much pressure on the injector against the glass which flexes the glass down and tightens the crack, too much heat which expands the glass and can tighten a crack, or an ineffective delivery system (injector).

As for drilling, I agree that conversation should probably be another thread, or added on to an existing thread, but it is tied into the resin delivery method as well.

Once again I would like to make it very clear that nearly everything I write about methods is system specific. If you don't use a Delta Kits system it is quite likely that much of what I share will be of little value to you. I would also caution Delta Kits users that much of what you read on this forum is posted by technicians who do not use Delta Kits product, and therefore much of what they share will have little or no value to you. In fact, in many cases it can get you into trouble, so please be sure you differentiate between system specific procedures and generic procedures.

Darn it screenman, you beat me to it. Good points!

[gt_repair]

Screenman

You asked about the vac first before injection.

If you ever saw someone working on an AC unit on a car, To get the freon in the AC unit they FIRST have to pull a vacum to get as much air out of the unit, then hold the can of freon up, fluid at the bottom and release the freon in the AC unit fluid first. In an AC uint they do not force the freon in, it is just from the vacum equalizing at that point.

With a vac first repair system from GT "Spectrum" it is moreless the same, but we help it a long with a little presure and than draw one more vac / presure... You can not do that with an AC unit in a car though.

With the GT Specrum I will pull a vac, and still under vac I will turn the injector to dump reisn into the break and wait a few, then release the vac then plung down on the injector to fill the break... You can see the resin filling before I even start injecting...
I let the customers watch and they are amazed, even the older folks. I like to let them watch then they tell their freinds. That is how I get a lot of jobs.

It is easer to pull a vac with out having resin in the break and it is faster..

I hope that helps for what I know of it.

I am a hard nut to sell when buying something. I will tell you, it sold me.

NOTE: I am not selling the product, just stating what I felt using the system... I started with Novus, then the 20/20 to the prizm, and now the spectrum.
Oh ya, I do have a LR just for vert. repairs.

Don.

[Brent Deines]

Don,

You seem to be missing two very important facts here. The air conditioning system is a closed system, and it is a pressurized system. If you have a leak in that system you cannot evacuate all the air, nor can you get it to hold the freon. Soooo, as I said in my post, IF you are only working on bullseyes where you can completely cover the pit area so there is no chance to pull any air from the surface, and IF your system is capable of separating the air from the resin with a one way valve or bleed off the air without letting any air back in, what you are saying would make sense. Otherwise you simply are not comparing apples to apples.

I don't expect you to believe me, but if you hire an independent engineer you will understand what I am talking about.

I guess all that really matters is that you are happy with the equipment you use, but I hope we can leave it at that and not get into a big debate about pressure and vacuum. I have been having these debates with competitors for years and nothing ever changes.

I still believe that comparing systems side by side is the best test. If I was just getting into the business I would choose the top 2 or 3 systems, make sure the companies selling those systems are confident enough in their products to give a money back guarantee, find out for myself which one works best, and send back the others.

[gt_repair]

This is your site, and your thoughts... Subject dropped.... Before I get dropped.

[Blind Squirrel]

Brent said:

I guess all that really matters is that you are happy with the equipment you use, but I hope we can leave it at that and not get into a big debate about pressure and vacuum. I have been having these debates with competitors for years and nothing ever changes.


A couple years ago, I believed with passion and fury that dry vacuum systems made every other system on the market obsolete. After using dry vacuum injectors (Cinch and Spectrum) for over 2 years, I went back to a wet injection technique with minimal vacuum, that is to say, only when needed, because there is no difference in the structural and cosmetic results. And it doesn't make any noticeable difference in the repair time.

And for what it's worth, I use Liquid Resins equipment.

Brent takes considerable time and energy to post on "his" forum in an unbiased and fair way. He give every issue the most thoughtful and intelligent responses he can. That's a big part of the reason I stick around.

[tooldini]

I would stay away from anything that is supposed to be automated. I know these repairs would not always looks as good as they could. I know from my experience 3/4 of my repairs require some outside flexing and even sometimes I flex the inside of the shield. Not just the price would keep me from buying its just flash and flare overkill in my opinion, plus I already have a crunchy shoulder Brent is corrent about the closed system, if there is any opening in a small crack or joining pit,, you will never get a good vacuum. perfect bullseyes are a rare thing in michigan

[harrellbenjamin]

Originally Posted by gt_repair

Screenman

You asked about the vac first before injection.

If you ever saw someone working on an AC unit on a car, To get the freon in the AC unit they FIRST have to pull a vacum to get as much air out of the unit, then hold the can of freon up, fluid at the bottom and release the freon in the AC unit fluid first. In an AC uint they do not force the freon in, it is just from the vacum equalizing at that point.

With a vac first repair system from GT "Spectrum" it is moreless the same, but we help it a long with a little presure and than draw one more vac / presure... You can not do that with an AC unit in a car though.

With the GT Specrum I will pull a vac, and still under vac I will turn the injector to dump reisn into the break and wait a few, then release the vac then plung down on the injector to fill the break... You can see the resin filling before I even start injecting...
I let the customers watch and they are amazed, even the older folks. I like to let them watch then they tell their freinds. That is how I get a lot of jobs.

It is easer to pull a vac with out having resin in the break and it is faster..

I hope that helps for what I know of it.

I am a hard nut to sell when buying something. I will tell you, it sold me.

NOTE: I am not selling the product, just stating what I felt using the system... I started with Novus, then the 20/20 to the prizm, and now the spectrum.
Oh ya, I do have a LR just for vert. repairs.

Don.

The reason you pull a vacume on an automotive a/c unit is NOT to help fill it with freon.The reason you pull a vacume in the unit is only to remove moisture.By pulling vacume you lower the boiling point of water so it can be evacuated at normal temps.The freon pressure will equalize to a certain point but a complete fill must be made by letting your compressor compress (force)the freon into your system through the suction side of your compressor.You do every time with out any exceptions have to force it in period.When you evacuate a system the pressure in the system is in a vacume.The pressure in your freon can is 70-80lbs.Once the freon starts to release into the system evaporation starts in the can and the pressure fall rapidly until the pressure in the A/C system is equal to the pressure in the freon can.The compressor than sucks(forces) the remaining freon into the system.So in reality its the pressure from the can that push's it in not from any vacume pulling it in.Simple physics.To prove my point .,if the a/c system had 70lb of pressure in it and your freon can had 70lbs you could still fill the unit without any vacume as the freon is sucked in the suction side of compressor and then compressed into the system..If you have 2 pressures or a vacume vs any pressure the material is forced into the lower pressure vessel .Sounds like they showed you the "Dog and Pony Show"...................

[jayjacque]

Originally Posted by screenman

I have not used computerised equipment, howeverI have used a sledgehammer to crack a nut and there was not much left to eat. I would imagine that the high tech equipment does 1 minute suction 1 minute pressure and few timew and then you take it off and cure it. Now this equipment must be good to tell the difference between different break types unconnected legs etc. Does it also do dry out when needed I wonder how it works that out. Now as you can tell I am little biased towards good old fashioned but still up to date Delta Equipment, That you can twiddle with and minutely adjust, flex the legs and genrally make a very good job with. All this at a very affordable price. Spend the extra money on a holiday, or a nicer vehicle or better still keep it in the bank.

Couldn't have said it better.

[gt_repair]

You all missed what I was going talking about...

To me as I can see it, it is easer to have the asistants of a vacum first to help draw the resin into the break compair to inject then vacum. I thought that the AC simulation would be easy enough to understand with out going into total depth. But you all broke it down in a differant aspect mechanicaly.
Again, one said it is hard to type what you mean compair to talking face to face.
Everyone seams to read to deep into something and then they miss what was really pointed out...

I will drop it at this point. I just had to point out what I was going for.