Curing bullseyes under pressure.

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GlassStarz
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Re: Curing bullseyes under pressure.

Post by GlassStarz »

At least three competitors have those videos on their websites.walk you through the process.
clearquest
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Re: Curing bullseyes under pressure.

Post by clearquest »

Really? There are videos of rings appearing as the resin runs out? What competitor has these videos? Can you please post the links to these? I want to see them.
t4k
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Re: Curing bullseyes under pressure.

Post by t4k »

GlassStarz wrote:At least three competitors have those videos on their websites.walk you through the process.
I want to see this too! You can actually see the resin leaving the chip and leaving a halo?!?

Send the links ASAP!!
GlassStarz
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Re: Curing bullseyes under pressure.

Post by GlassStarz »

Ok for you challenged folks we will start again. Videos of system's that use pressure cure. If you are so far out of it that you can't figure out that when you release the pressure obvious backflow occurs you probably haven't really used a WR injector. Get with the facts I'm starting to know how Galileo felt in his conversation with the pope. If you use a injector that can't take direct uv without possibly freezing up this discussion isn't for you. But shame on the manufacturer that doesn't just fess up to the fact that his equipment can't be used this way. Instead of saying something like yes some folks believe this is a part of the process but we have chosen to go a different direction because of whatever reason. But not in this case just stood on the roof and did his best to turn the subject. Heat? Who still uses that? Oh yea the ones who don't give enough vac or pressure. If you are seriously looking to better your repairs try pressure cure if you are not hey don't worry be happy. I'm out
clearquest
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Re: Curing bullseyes under pressure.

Post by clearquest »

Sure excess resin runs out from the pit when you release the bridge and injector from the glass, We all know that. But if the injector is in a neutral position and not still under pressure, the runoff is minimal. And I've never had that excess resin runoff result in a ring around the bullseye. Never. That's a fact. And as far as I know all of the injectors out there could be used in a "cure under pressure" scenario if necessary. But it's NOT necessary. A properly repaired bullseye does not need a pressure cure to avoid a ring. There is no ring that occurs due to lack of curing under pressure if the air is removed in the first place. And HEAT, yes it's an issue. People dont have to add heat to deal with heat issues. This thing called the sun does it for you. And if that windshield is not cooled down on a blazing hot day, it takes very little pressure to cause a ring. So even though most people rarely use heat, you often have it whether you chose to or not! And if you are seriously wating to better your repairs, get it right in the first place.
EMCAutoGlass
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Re: Curing bullseyes under pressure.

Post by EMCAutoGlass »

Has anyone ever experienced any problems from curing under pressure? It seems that the few issues mentioned are from not curing under pressure, but I haven't heard of any problems resulting from curing under pressure. I always cure under pressure because that’s how I was taught during factory training. I have never had a pressure ring with a standard bull’s-eye because, as previously discussed, I cool the windshield (when needed) and use very little pressure. You just need sufficient seal on the glass with a bull’s-eye anyways. Running a couple good vacuum/pressure cycles also helps to ensure all the air is removed (not compressed to the edges). So I guess the takeaway points are to follow the manufacturer’s recommendations for the equipment/resins you are using, and to ensure the glass is the right temperature with least amount of pressure required. If you’ve been successful with always curing under pressure, or not curing under pressure, I recommend to keep doing what you’re doing. Because I haven’t had problems curing under pressure, haven’t heard of anyone else having problems curing under pressure (normal pressure), and the manufacturer of my equipment recommends doing so, I’ll continue to do it. I recently switched to Magnibond with my non-DK tools, cured under pressure, and had excellent results.
Thanks for listening!
-Marty
GlassStarz
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Re: Curing bullseyes under pressure.

Post by GlassStarz »

I'm assuming the tech is doing a repair on cool GLASS that's a basic. And I didn't say you need to pressure just that it provides a better repair. Also that little bit that ran out where did it come from? Basic science would tell you it had to come from somewhere? Or do you have magic resin that expands :-)
bill lambeth
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Re: Curing bullseyes under pressure.

Post by bill lambeth »

EMC what equipment are you using?
EMCAutoGlass
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Re: Curing bullseyes under pressure.

Post by EMCAutoGlass »

bill lambeth wrote:EMC what equipment are you using?
I use a GW injector for chips, and I have a couple UB injectors/bridges for long cracks. I plan to pick up a DK injector/bridge down the road. I don't really like the UB injector/bridge for chips, so it would be nice to add a DK set for simultaneous chip repairs.
-Marty
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Brent Deines
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Re: Curing bullseyes under pressure.

Post by Brent Deines »

EMCAutoGlass wrote:Has anyone ever experienced any problems from curing under pressure? It seems that the few issues mentioned are from not curing under pressure, but I haven't heard of any problems resulting from curing under pressure. I always cure under pressure because that’s how I was taught during factory training. I have never had a pressure ring with a standard bull’s-eye because, as previously discussed, I cool the windshield (when needed) and use very little pressure. You just need sufficient seal on the glass with a bull’s-eye anyways. Running a couple good vacuum/pressure cycles also helps to ensure all the air is removed (not compressed to the edges). So I guess the takeaway points are to follow the manufacturer’s recommendations for the equipment/resins you are using, and to ensure the glass is the right temperature with least amount of pressure required. If you’ve been successful with always curing under pressure, or not curing under pressure, I recommend to keep doing what you’re doing. Because I haven’t had problems curing under pressure, haven’t heard of anyone else having problems curing under pressure (normal pressure), and the manufacturer of my equipment recommends doing so, I’ll continue to do it. I recently switched to Magnibond with my non-DK tools, cured under pressure, and had excellent results.
Thanks for listening!
-Marty
Well said Marty. I too always recommend following the mfg instructions. If the equipment you use requires you cure under pressure, or if you simply prefer doing so and you are getting satisfactory results, no problem. What I object to is these ridiculous references to science supposedly proving that removing the bridge causes a ring of air around a bullseye, which we have proven over and over again is simply not the case using a Delta Kits system.

To answer your question, my problem with curing under pressure is that in the case of a bullseye, as we have been discussing, if you are not able to remove the air from the edges of the damage, curing under pressure is not removing it, but only compressing it to the point where it is no longer visible. A drop of resin running out of the top of the repair when the bridge is removed does not cause air to migrate to the bottom outside edge of the damage. For that to happen resin would have to be lighter than air, which it clearly is not.

So the real question is this, is a break that is filled and cured with air trapped at the edge of the damage, even though it may not be visible, as strong as a break that is filled completely, with no air trapped at the edge of the break? Frankly in the case of a bullseye it's probably not a big deal. However, if you are doing the same thing with a star, combination break or crack, I believe there is a significantly greater chance that the repair will fail. Therefore I don't understand why someone would want to leave air in the damage if it can be removed. Curing under pressure is also an extra step adds to the time it takes to complete the repair.

I've pondered this entire conversation quite a bit over the weekend and thought of another reason an air ring might appear at the edge of the damage when the bridge is removed. If the injector is causing too much pressure against the glass the damage may partially close, thereby blocking resin from the tightest points of the damage, which in the case of a bullseye is the outer edge. We actually see this quite a bit in our training classes as technicians, new and old alike, often apply more pressure than they need thinking it will provide a better seal against the glass. With too much pressure against the glass the damage may appear completely filled but when pressure is lifted (bridge removed), the glass returns to its natural state and air may appear in the damage. Curing under pressure is one solution to this problem but not the best one in my opinion, because we want the glass to be in its natural state when the resin is cured, not under stress (pressure). If you were welding a cracked piece of metal you would not put pressure on one side during the welding process and then release it when you were done. This would cause the weld to be under continuous stress and could lead to failure. The same principle applies to repairing glass. I see technicians curing star breaks under pressure all the time because they are unable to get the air out of the end of the cracks. Many of these technicians also complain about a high percentage of failed repairs but don't understand why. The answer is that they are not getting resin to the end of the cracks to begin with.

I would not even have entered this conversation if it was just a matter of two technicians with different opinions about curing under pressure. It's just when someone claims their opinion is an "irrefutable fact" or "basic science", that I object and have to step in. I can and have proven that using a Delta Kits system it is not necessary to cure under pressure and that in removing the bridge no ring of air will appear at the edge of a bullseye if the equipment is being used properly. Anyone who has visited us at a trade show or attended one of our training classes also knows this. We also have multiple videos demonstrating that no air ring appears when the bridge is removed. Still we have to continually address claims to the contrary on this forum. Unfortunately naysayers never come to our training classes.

While I always encourage experimentation and certainly acknowledge that there are often two ways to skin a cat, I find the technicians who attend our training classes and stick with the methods we teach have the fewest problems, while those who start experimenting before they ever really learn the mfg method well first, run into all kinds of problems. I suspect other equipment manufacturers would say the same. If you are using GW equipment you will likely find following their recommendations will serve you well and if you are using DKI equipment I'm confident you will find our recommendations will serve you well. Mix them up and you can't really blame the equipment when things go wrong.
Brent Deines
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