did a chip on the inside part of windshield

[Dave M]

Maybe a reply is needed from one of the original authors of that standard. Myself, not being one of those persons can only speculate on the reasons.
Other than vertical truck windshields, most inside repairs would be done on a 91 - 135 degree angle or more. This would seem to make for a difficult placement of the injector where the windshield is now curve inward. Would this also mean the resin will be difficult to stay in the proper position in the injector prior to vacuum/pressure cycles? What about placing the injector down near the dashboard, or the curing light? If that is a problem than would there be limitations on where an inside repair could be performed? I can't see moisture being a problem!

[SuperGlassDave]

Screenman, SGT and Dave M,

First of all, thank you for not blasting me and for keeping an open mind about my post. You showed me more patience than I probably deserved. You are all correct that if a standard cannot be substantiated, then it should be questioned and, or changed.

Also SGT, no way would I disrespect any diligent repairer, full time or part time and definitely did not mean to include you. My description had three more words to describe what I was offended by. Part time was a bad choice of words on my part, I should have been more sensitive. What I was trying to describe was a technician who is not concerned with the long term aspects of the repair, only the short term cash. I also could be wrong about the guy who originally tried it as he may have been trying to meet his customer's request.

I also am into systems. I am loving what I am learning from the aviation and the Part 145 Repair Station. You are also correct SGT in that a great system, like in aviation, leaves no room for error. Although w/s repair isn't jet repair, it is still exciting to apply as many standards as possible to achieve greatness. I know that you feel the same, as do thousands of great repairers and the WRO medal winners. All those guys are system oriented or they wouldn't have won.

I remember that the issue of broken glass on the inner layer was that the bond to the PVB would surely be inhibited and would result in glass breaking free of the PVB and potentially injuring passengers (spalling). But, there was much less scientific knowledge then. Many of the standards were put together to show the regulatory agencies that we did have a system, that we did show restraint if any potential passenger safety was an issue (not take a chance) and that they did not need to make rules for us because we were making our own. It worked. But, our board was severly limited in finances as well as reference material. As it went through ROLAGS, which I was not in on at the end, they may have had more data to work with. I will do my best to find out and let you know through this forum.

Again, thank you for giving me a chance to clarify myself. I love w/s repair. I respect every repairer who respects our industry. I dislike those that don't. Sometimes I don't do a good enough job on identifying who is who.

And, just so you know I am trying, our program calls for 5 days of lab training and 5 days of field training with 10+ year trainers before we let them go alone. There are no other options in our company. And, I will do what I can to help any repairer, anywhere, to increase their quality and represent w/s repair the way you and I want it to be. It's been a 28 year career that I really treasure and I appreciate you guys and all the rest that have carried this business to where it is now.

Best regards and thank you for your replys. I'll be back with more info on the inner layer issue.
David Casey - superGlass

[sunshine wr]

"maying repairs that should not be done"?

first, what does that even mean. second, why would you say a repair shouldnt be done. i was the one in the situation where i had to decide so that was for me to do so. i am certainly not in a position to turn down a $150 job that i had just booked. i actually walked in there to tell him i couldnt do it, got talking to my wife on the cell on the way, and somehow decided that a chance at $150 was a fine way to fill the next hour. i say chance because i promised to guarantee customer satisfaction through the sale.

oh well, i guess i posted the story to get peoples comments. i suppose you're entitled to yours too. videos are on youtube if anyone wants to search strange windshield repairs. i took the videos and a few pics with the thought to share later with this fine community in mind. however i think its rude to start your comments off saying you're laughing out loud at my story (in a rude way) followed by saying i should have posted the story somewhere for jokes or non-windshield related matter. i still am not even sure where you're coming from. either you dont believe my story (which is wierd i know) or you're just plain being rude about it. either way is not cool.

couldn't find your video. maybe you can post a link.

[Brent Deines]

ROLAGS stands for REPAIR OF LAMINATED AUTO GLASS STANDARD. It is an ANSI standard jointly created by the NGA and the NWRA in an effort to legitimize windshield repair by setting a realistic quality and procedure standard. Visit www.ROLAGS.com for more info.

I would have passed on this repair for the same reason that DaveM cited; I don't recommend drilling into or through the laminate.

Since ROLAGS is a collaborative effort there are likely to be things in the standard that most will not agree with 100%, but the value I see in making a few compromises is to get glass manufacturers, PVB manufacturers, insurance companies, and lawmakers, to recognize windshield repair as a legitimate and important service that is in the best interest of consumers. Those who support ROLAGS understand that there is a time to repair and a time to replace, and that neither repair nor replacement is "always" the best option for the consumer. What is best for the consumer should always be our first consideration, regardless of whether we offer repair only, replacement only, or both services.

In my opinion it is very unfortunate that some repair only technicians, suppliers, and manufacturers, treat every glass replacement company as the enemy and vice-versa. I really believe the glass repair and glass replacement industries can work together in harmony, and in fact I see it happening all the time.

[jasonsresin]

superglassdave, i must say after reading two post of yours i got flush in the face. i will restrain my "excitement" towards the defending of my reputation on this forum, and not directing assults, similiar to the ones you've made against me.

first of all, in no way shape or form am i a part timer. i started working for myself in feb 2003, and although i had a little experience in Michigan before that, i admit my repairs were perfect something like 3/4rds of the time during that year as an average. probably a little better, but i constantly remember wishing for more experience and knowledge of the trade. it was not an add on, but rather i did that and interior repairs. interiors made up 2/3rds of what i did. windshields the other third. i gained a reputation mostly on my interiors and quickly got decent in the trade, especially once i found the injectors i currently use and got proficient with them. windshield accounts that were once teetering became solid once my repairs started leaning towards getting all the air out on a consistent basis. slowly i picked up more and more accounts and hired an employee to travel the dealers with me, and we worked them together. i had a few windshield only accounts very soon, and my mix was more like 50/50. once the economy crashed i let go my third employee (never had more than one guy at a time) and am back to working by myself. need i say full time. in the last two years my mix of windshields to interiors is more like 70/30 as most of my accounts now know me as a windshield guy.

as far as me not being "prideful" in my work, i dare you to meet me and say the same. anyone who has talked to me about windshield repair knows that i take a great deal of pride in my work, and i consistently do better repairs than any nearby glass shops in this area. many of my car dealers have long since come to appreciate that, and i get calls from dealers in that have glass shops two minutes from their lot. replacing a windshield is one thing, having the skill to repair it in my opinion is an art form that comes from a knowledge of the ins and outs to the trade. i consider myself quite a repair snob, and feel that i can match repair quality with anyone else that would do the same repair. once a repair comes out perfect, its out perfect. my only disclaimer to that statement is that after 7 years, it does seem i am still learning. but far be it from you, to say that im still learning the basics. i will have my due when it comes to my repair skills and i will not have it challenged that i can do anything less than a perfect repair.

in respect to your comment about that one repair being about the money. i will concede that you are correct. i did an estimate and gave the guy an offer, and this was the first repair on the inside of a windshield i believe i have ever seen. that goes back to my statement that i am still learning even after 7 years. i was unaware of the existence of a set of recommended instructions for windshield repair by nwra, nor was i aware of its contents. is somebody ignorant because of that. well, i pray that you never have me as a student if you are that unforgiving. the fact of the matter is, if someone has never been told or taught something, nor came across it ever, they will not know about it. i was not having a negative, live for the buck attitude. i was put in a position by a relatively new dealer to try to save them a windshield that was $700 plus. i went in and educated him on what the repair meant, and how it wouldnt be perfect, and that this was a rare type of occasion. i doubt you can go into many glass shops, who do not have the passion to keep up with their trades enough to come on these forums, where a customer is educated so much as any one of mine is.

i feel i have done a good job of defending myself in a civilized manner. i dare not post a link to the videos for fear of giving more ammunition to the fire of anyone speaking out against me. anyone who wants to see my youtube links can pm or email me and i will give them to you.

[Brent Deines]

I just realized that I somehow missed an entire days worth of posts on this topic. Sorry if my last post about ROLAGS was a bit redundant.

[Frank EU]

Hi jasonsresin, I for one am indeed very interested in your YouTube video. I believe that we all can learn from each other, and this forum is a pretty good medium to do so. Like I mentioned, we do perform repairs on the inside, not always, but providing some critera are met we do, so does Screenman. In other words....you're not alone! Probabaly many others on the board do not want to admitt they do, but I am pretty sure that there will be others. Whether their attempts were/will be succesfull or not does not matter, at least there are some who don't care to discuss it here on the board. And isn't that what makes things changing? Different ideas may very well lead to different technics, products, systems >thus changes. Why wouldn't we question some ''rules''? If things would not have changed, we all would be driving that black T-Ford right? The least we we can and should do is talk about it.

Also; SuperGlassDave, who I happen to know, was a bit harsh in his first post, but he openly appologized in public, and that is, for most people, a very difficult thing to do. Like I ended my post on the board before, please do keep on posting your experiences, you are entitled having your own say and we may all, in an open minded fashion, learn and benefit. The forum sometimes slows down so new topics will start up the traffic and replies.
Thank you for joining and sharing.

Regards,
Frank

[Frank EU]

jasonsresin, you must be showroom2004 on youtube? It would match the post day of the video's I have found there.
Regretfully we cannot see the results of the repair.
Anyway, here is the link to the three YouTube movies...... http://www.youtube.com/user/showroom2004

[Frank EU]

jasonsresins, I have watched your youtube movies a few times, and what I don't understand is the following.....: if the damage was on the inside, than on what impact point did you place the injector? On that movie you say something like ''here I got a drop of resin coming from the repair'' and it is clear to see that an injector is placed over what you believed was an impact point. It would be a very weird accidental event to have an impact point right there.
Did you, for example, clean the impact point and ''flex'' the damage with your probe?

[jasonsresin]

i have a few pictures besides the video, and they were much better resolution. i dont remember if i have a close up of after. i'll see if i can get them onto tinypic.com. honestly the repair came out fine, but it wasnt worth bragging about. it came out pretty much as good as the same repair on the outside would have i suppose. you know how you can look at some repairs and say, "this one will have a little more scarring than usual". there was some shatter, or multiple close legs within the body, and they filled in but left a scar. so i guess i wasnt as pressed on showing how well i got it out, as i was focusing on the fact that there was one there at all. in fact, if you'll notice in the third video, i even was saying "if there are any skeptics out there, here is irrefutable proof that it is in fact on the inside." i honestly thought the main thing was, that no one would believe me unless i recorded it. so i didnt really focus on a before and after.

as far as what impact point i put it on, there seemed to be a small chip in the vicinity of the outside of the repair, but i'm talking about the size that if 20 of them were on your windshield, no one would notice or care. not those bigger chips that sometimes we'll see 2 or 3 of. very small. i used that as an entry point, although i didnt have to. if it wasnt there, i was just gonna center it and drill. it was definitely not caused by an outside strike, cause i could feel more than a pit on the inside. i could tell kind of a small line where the damage was on the inside of the windshield. somewhere in there, the resin leaked out and rolled down the inside of the windshield once i had the injector setup. didnt get too much flowering either which i was expecting. (flowering* -resin flowing between the two layers of glass and causing optical distortion) i didnt dilly dally for that reason. once the repair was good i cured it. less time for resin to smoosh its way between the glass. my resin is leaning towards the thin side from winter, and that could have ruined the optics of the repair enough for whatever rich snob was buying that 07 fj cruiser to ask for a new windshield.

as far as me having seen an apology from your buddy, the only thing close to an apology i saw was directed to "Screenman, SGT and Dave M,". one was not given and one is not necessary. i got hot at first, but i think i was civil in my defense. thanks for the fellow feeling frank eu. i think you helped keep my high opinion of these forums intact.