did a chip on the inside part of windshield

[screenman]

I am also very interested in the logic behind why and how a small hole through the PVB would cause extreme weakness in the windshield, could someone please explain.

[Frank EU]

sydfloyd44, I certainly do not want to attack you, but if you do not care what others have to say about your posted opinion, why posting it? This normaly isn't a one way street -is it? Boy oh boy, did this topic go wild. And why? Is it because some posters just THINK, FEEL, HAVE BEEN TOLD not to drill or even touch the PVB? Or is it based on FACTS? If it are facts, please do not hesitate to publish all the details here on the forum. If you just BELIEVE what you've been told, without any REAL facts to support that claim, why wouldn't you be more flexible and open minded? No, you do not have to forget what they've told you at the training, all I am saying is that it is never healthy to blindly believe anything you've been told. In fact, it is wrong in some instances.

Am I not passionate about our trade, you couldn't be more wrong. We have been in this trade for some fifteen years and WSR has been very good for us, but we keep on learning and just hate to just take anything for granted. We play a lot with test windshields in our training facility. So do others here on the board. And all that playing has already given all of us new ideas and technics right?

Jasonsresins did not tell you guys to do the same he did, he just told and shared his story. If you do not want to drill at all, some indeed never drill and that is just fine, but if you have ever drilled, have you never touched the PVB with the burr? Are you sure that you have never ever ''damaged'' the inner layer at all? I do doubt it! Stories like this are good stories because the initial poster was honest and openly sharing what he experienced. It is too easy to just shout or laugh, let's discuss this, that is more profitable.

[Brent Deines]

While I agree with SGT that it is better to be safe than take a needless risk, and I have already stated that I personally would have passed on the repair, I once again recognize the logic behind the statements that Nomad and FrankEU have made. We have all heard that drilling into the laminate is unsafe, yet several windshield repair manufacturers used to recommend this practice, and after thousands, or perhaps millions of repairs, there has not been one documented case of a windshield not doing it's job (keeping occupants safe) that can be contributed to a windshield repair. There has also not been any test publicized to date that proves that drilling a small hole in the laminate compromises the windshield to the point that it will not meet the ANSI safety standards for a new windshield, or at least not that I am aware of. Let us also not forget that the hole was not left open, but filled with an acrylic resin that is flexible, has a very high bonding strength, and seals the damage from air and moisture, both reported to be damaging to the PVB. We should also not forget that there have been many documented incidents where windshield replacements have resulted in injuries and deaths. As an installer, and a very careful one at that, I am extremely paranoid about letting someone I don't know replace my windshield because if done improperly, and many are, that would certainly be putting my family at risk. Yet no one thinks twice about letting the cheapest hack in town replace their windshield. There is a lot of data to prove that improper installations happen every day, and that those installations are very unsafe, yet there is no data to prove that a repair, even one in which the laminate was disturbed, creates an unsafe condition. Testing is in progress, but until that testing is complete, the 30 year spotless track record for windshield repairs speaks volumes.

Let me be very, very, clear so that I am not mis-quoted or mis-understood. I do not support drilling into or through the PVB. I am just trying to play devils advocate and take only the facts into consideration. There is no reason to attack someone without proof that they are wrong, and so far I have not seen any proof. Absence of proof is only opinion.

[SGT]

I also believe in exploreing new thoughts,techniques etc... just not on a customers vehicle when it involes a human life. Everyone has there own risk tolerance though. I do not feel comfortable taking that liberty. Shop testing... have at it! Although I highly doubt anyone has the ability to effectively test this and the forces encountered and how they are distributed through the vehicle/windshield during an inmpact.

I am all about black and white. Show me the findings! With that said it works both ways, without those findings I for myself would not be doing customer work I was not sure was not endangering them. I ask everyone can you prove drilling through the laminate is not comprimising windshield integrity? At the present time I say "NO". So why do we think we have the right to be pioneers with this process when it inolves lives. Let's say you have a and undisturbed PVB, it is 100%, now we intentionally drill through it for the sake of the repair well you have removed a portion of that PVB so it is no longer 100% .Lets say it is now 99.5% whole. Well if it is not 100% whole it is comprimised. To what degree we do not know but it is. We can not deny this and we also have to embrace the fact that it was intentionally comprimised should something happen. Does it cause extreme weakness? I feel probably not under normal conditions but through accident stress and forces and who knows.

Personally for the logic I have shared, I do not agree with this practice at this point but I am not you and vice versa. I also look forward to fact findings from credible sources that will show otherwise. Are there tolerences/limits for loss of PVB material? Until then my risk tolerance tells me to say NO.

Good Healthy Debate.

[Nomad]

Screenman, Frank EU and Brent, I think we are on the same page. Thanks for your input.

[SuperGlassDave]

Hello again everyone,
This post seems to becoming productive, exchanging lots of points and staying pretty civilized. All good signs for a sort of unity within the industry. We all have enough challenges from the replacement, networks, etc that we surely don't need to be fighting each other.

I do agree with all of you that innovation comes from experimentation, I also agree that experimenting should be done in a lab type setting rather than on a customer's vehicle. A good point was made that the repairer is the professional and the customer should be looking to the repairer for good advice regarding their repair. I doubt that many of us dictate to our doctors and dentists exactly how we want them to proceed on working on us, eh?

The big point I would like to make is that without decent guidelines any industry can become chaotic in it's proper procedures. There should be unified agreement amongst diligent repairers on what is safe and what isn't. If it isn't totally understood, we should err to the side of safety for the customer.

I also agree that there are many laws in our city, state and federal governments that many of us don't agree with. But, if we disregard them we may go to jail or be fined. So, we adhere to the laws, UNLESS we decide to have them changed through the proper civil channels. That is introducing better laws that are more applicable and protesting in a lawful way. That's what civilization causes, us learning to live together with the least amount of infringement on our freedom but, a clear understanding that the majority rules.
ROLAGS is similar to a law, although not enforced. It can be changed through channels if the changes are warrented and the majority can show that the change is proper. ROLAGS is open to comment and change. It just takes time and trouble to do it.

What any of us do reflects on all of us. I know we all want to have pride in our work and our ethics, everyone on this post has shown their passion for that. A good tip from the aviation maintenance to remember is that if you don't 100% understand the job at hand, you are prohibited from doing the job. You must dig deeper in the maintenace manual or contact the manufacturer's tech support for clarification. Granted, the airplane issue is so important because so many lives are at stake. But, just because the vehicle only holds a few people that shouldn't lesson our desire to always do the safest thing. Drivers deserve the same guidance from their professional as do air passengers.

Let's keep up the good attitude, continue to look for facts and learn to communicate together to make the industry better for all of us. And, by showing that responsibilty we will ward off unwanted oversight by government agencies, especially those that are influenced by the replacement issue.

Last note to Jasonresin. My apology was for mistakenly referring to "part time" as less than professional. That was a mistake on my part and I apologize again. Not for disputing the repair on the inside of the w/s. But, I did try to help you with the network info, trying to show that it's not personal to you, just my firm conviction on keeping this business clean. And, a reminder, I don't replace so I have no other agenda.

Again, congratulations to all for continuing this post in a productive and inquisitive manner. Happy repairing to all of you.
David Casey - President
SuperGlass Windshield Repair, Inc.